Posted: 11:20 am Wednesday, January 8th, 2014

Hall of Fame needs new voting guidelines 

By Jeff Schultz

Every year there is more confusion. Every year there are more arguments. Every year somebody feels compelled to “make a statement,” as was the case this year when at least one Baseball Hall of Fame voter chose to leave every “steroid era” player off of his ballot, even the clearly steroid-free Greg Maddux. (More on that shortly.)

There needs to be a change.

BravesI’ve thought about giving up my Hall of Fame vote for the same reasons others probably have. There is a lack of clarity on how to deal with players who’ve either been caught, admitted to, or are highly suspected of using performance enhancing drugs. There is a lack of clarity on how voters should treat former players like Mike Piazza and Jeff Bagwell, both of whom have Hall-worthy credentials but some believe also used PEDs. (Piazza and Bagwell fall into what I term the, “I want to think about it for a while” category. For that reason, I’ve voted for neither.)

The Baseball Writers Association of America (BBWAA), the Hall of Fame and Major League Baseball need to collectively come up with clear guidelines for voters on this issue.

Should steroids be ignored?

Should steroids be factored in?

Should there be a mandate of proof and/or an admission of guilt before a Hall candidate can be red-lined?

What qualifies as sufficient circumstantial evidence?

What if a player admits he used PEDs but there’s a belief by a voter he would have had Hall of Fame credentials, anyway. (Best examples: Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.)

Frankly, I’m tired of it all.

Later today, two clearly drug-free ex-Braves pitchers are expected to be voted in: Maddux and Tom Glavine. They are both first-ballot worthy candidates. I’ll be back later with a column on the vote.

We learned Tuesday that Maddux would not be a unanimous candidate. Ken Gurnick, a Los Angeles-based writer for MLB.com, revealed that he voted for only Jack Morris. His reasoning: Morris pitched prior to what Gurnick perceives as the pre-steroid era. He didn’t feel comfortable voting for anybody else.

Now, I feel compelled to weigh in on Gurnick’s decision because he’s taking a beating on various blogs and in the Twitterverse.

I’ve known Ken for over 33 years. We worked together in Los Angeles at the old Valley News (now the Daily News). Our sports staff included a number of young writers right out of college, including Gurnick, John Lowe (a long time Detroit Free Press baseball writer John Lowe), Eric Sondheimer (now at the L.A. Times), Jay Privman (lead writer at the Racing Form) and several others.

Ken is neither a dummy nor a bitter old man, as he’s been portrayed. He’s actually one of the premier reporters I’ve ever come across. When he covered the Los Angeles Rams for us, he broke every major story on the beat, hammering the Times, the old Herald Examiner (for whom he later worked) and every major suburban paper — including the South Bay Daily Breeze, which had a pretty good young reporter named Chris Mortensen.

Gurnick has taken the position that we don’t truly know who did or didn’t take something in the steroid era, and therefore he has chosen not to vote for anybody. You might disagree with that position but it’s his opinion.

Do I agree with his ballot? No. But I respect his right to have an opinion and the current voting system allows for an unlimited range of criteria. (Ken also announced this would be the final year he would vote.)

So here’s hoping the official parties create some guidelines for future votes. Right now, things are kind of a mess.

And, honestly, I’m not sure how much longer I want to do this, either.

53 comments
HUDDYS1FAN
HUDDYS1FAN

Baseball's deep, dark secret concerning PED'S...........


Cooperstown may already be juiced and almost nobody can guess who the player is, or why I suspect this one particular athlete. 


First, there is not one single shred of physical evidence, nor has his name ever come up in discussion. Which is why he will continue to be unnamed.


Second, the facts as follows: this athlete played virtually his entire career right alongside some of the most famous PED abusers in the game, not to mention resurrecting his career playing side by side with baseball's typhoid Mary. So the circumstantial evidence is damning beyond words as birds of a feather flock together. Quit literally.


Third, he's innocent until proven guilty, I'm not going to besmirch the man's character or tarnish his Hall of Fame bust. However, I think we have yet to hear the fat lady sing and there are many within the game who never want to hear her swan song.

Dawggie
Dawggie

I remember reading where Maddox said his wife saw him getting out of the shower once and laughingly said, "I can't believe you are a professional athlete!" 

So that soft guy, who who threw a whopping 88 MPH AGAINST steroid-using hitters didn't deserve Gurnick's HOF vote?

Gurnick may not be bitter, or old, but he is a dummy, JS.

reckingball
reckingball

I guess my comment must of hit a nerve, yesterday. There is still no excuse for that moron not putting Maddux on his ballot

DawgDadII
DawgDadII

"People who never played the game should not be voting for the HOF."

You might want to familiarize yourself with the "Friends of Frankie". There is a potential downside to your proposal as well.

ColdSplash
ColdSplash

Good grief. Slit your wrists and get over with. Most outside of your ridiculous fantasy land line of work could car less what you ballerinas think about who and who not is deserving...of anything. We answer these questions actually pretty darn easily...and accurately. So give it up sweetie, take off your miniskirt, and slit your writs now if you can't handle this. You can't handle anything.

jhgm63
jhgm63

Jeff, while I respect those in the print media, the fact that Vin Scully (or Harry Caray, Skip Caray, Ernie Harwell - you know the list) is not allowed to vote on the Hall of Fame is enough to tell me that the process is broken.

POAD2013
POAD2013

How can we find the OLD POST from a few years ago now?

I don't see a link t the old archives.

DawgDadII
DawgDadII

ThomasBrown:

You reprinted 1/2 of my two-sentence statement and thus took my comment completely out of context.

58Supersports
58Supersports

Jeff, I just heard that Louisville had  hired your friend Harry Reed to be AD to over see Petrino...

reelmower
reelmower

.. check .. check .. is this thing on?

foxdog
foxdog

"Ken is neither a dummy or a bitter old man,". No, he is a dumbass! Along with 15 other idiots.

Dan_B
Dan_B

Simple solution .... build a new wing to Cooperstown. Call it "The Potential Cheaters Room". Put in Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemons, etc. These guys have had too much influence over the game of baseball not to get some recognition. 

unfairlybannedforlife
unfairlybannedforlife

Perhaps the media outlet for the U of Luisville needs a paper hack too.

Seems Jeffey might fit.

Give Schultz a call.  He knows just EVERYTHING!

JTavegia
JTavegia

This is the problem in life when you always think you are right. People who never played the game should not be voting for the HOF.  The players and managers  should be voting.  No one else. This is proof of it. This is also why the All Start Game voting is so messed up. Stuffing the ballot box is never a good idea.  But that is what happens now. These two parts of the game are broken. 

dianetavegia
dianetavegia

His attitude is guilty until proven innocent...to him? He is a dunce. Take his voting privileges away. To not vote for Maddux or Glavine is just irresponsible. He can make all the "statements" he wants in his columns. 

tneck
tneck

Obviously more than one writer left Maddux off their ballot.  Get rid of all of them.  How could he not be on your ballot?  Cy Youngs, gold gloves, over 350 victories, over 3000 strikeouts and a low era.  Plus the Braves had the best record.  He should have been on every ballot.  Period.

ThomasBrownUGA
ThomasBrownUGA

John Smolz becomes eligible for HOF voting next year and Chipper Jones not until 2018.


1. Barry Bonds 1st year last year 36 percent this year 34.


2. Roger Clemens 1st year last year 37 percent this year 35.


3. Sammy Sosa 1st year last year 12 percent this year 7.


4. Mark McGwire after 8 fruitless tries HOF now, down to 11.


5. Rafael Palmeiro in his 4th try went down from 8 percent last year to 4.


75 % required, so you can see these 5 voted upon this year, will NEVER be HOF, as it should be.

ThomasBrownUGA
ThomasBrownUGA

"Having seen what Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, and Barry Bonds did FOR baseball on the field in terms of drawing fans it's hard to argue to keep them out. "


________________________________________


Baseball is suffering from the fact that we cheered these guys, only to find the truth. That is just exactly like a national championship for Southern California which was taken away from them because of a star player Reggie Bush.


NCAA ruled that Reggie Bush had received improper gifts from sports agents Lloyd Lake and Michael Michaels from at least December 2004 in violation of NCAA rules of amateurism.Southern California was placed on 4 years' probation and forced to VACATE its last two wins of the 2004 season as well as all of its wins in the 2005 season. Banned from bowl games in 2010 and 2011 and lost 30 scholarships over three years. Running backs coach Todd McNair was banned from off-campus recruiting for one year after the NCAA determined he'd known about Reggie Bush and his agents. The NCAA ruled Southern California had to disassociate itself from Reggie Bush permanently.


No difference in any of this DawgDad and your statement here about the same type players as Reggie Bush.  None.


It is WORSE when frauds are propped-up as great DawgDad.  I hope you see Jeff Schultz' point here he has been quite consistent about through the years on PED ?


So, there are no clouds on Tom Glavine who relied on a change-up and location in Steroid Era, nor Greg Maddux who relied on a screwball and location.


Ken Gurnick's point is clear to all the rest of us DawgDad, that the Steroid Era is still trying to be covered up by Baseball for just the reason you mention that we were duped into cheering while we knew there was something wrong.


John Smoltz, who as 1 poster just pointed-out he was disturbed by John's statement, and Chipper Jones had injuries in both of their careers once Steroids were finally put behind us.  I think it is a blanket statement of being duped Ken Gurnick is making about all these guys - like Reggie Bush.


Do I think either of them did PED ?


Well, I think Tom Glavine is lucky to be in HOF, and Greg Maddux not being unanimous is appalling.   Glavine was a good fielder and a good hitter, but I would not exactly say that I felt comfortable with him on the mound for us in post-season.  After all, we let him leave Atlanta after 2002 season.  Remember ?  $ 42 million for Mets.  Glavine's role as players' rep to the players' union during this time we hide all the PED use still even today and stonewall we fans about it has to figure in my thinking on Tom Glavine, in addition. 


14-16 post-season is not my idea of Hall of Fame.


He batted .169 in the post-season and fielding of 1.000 were both great.


Sorry.  I was there.  As starting catcher my high school baseball team my Junior and Senior season, Tom Glavine was not impressive to me at all.


Greg Maddux we let go away from Atlanta too, yet despite also a good hitter but not as good as Tom Glavine, and also a great fielder but again not as great as Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux also was 11-14 in post-season.  Now, I blame Bobby Cox for all of this, but honestly 1 World Series.  That's it.


And, all of these guys are supposed to be HOF for that 1 World Series title ?


There is reason Greg Maddux won 50 more games than Tom Glavine and that reason is that he was a better pitcher.


John Smoltz won the games post-season we won, and he is questionable along with Chipper Jones, right ?

TheMonger
TheMonger

One writes an entire article on the steroid/Hall of Fame debate, and then says "Frankly, I'm tired of it all".  Really now?  You are tired of talking about it, but spent hours of your life and thousands of words typed to talk and debate about it?  I know journalists lie through their teeth, but this takes the cake.

ChefTimDix
ChefTimDix

Jeff, Ken maybe all that and a bag of chips but on this matter  he's a poseur.

PeachtreeBart
PeachtreeBart

Easy solution:  vote anyone in according to their statistics, as you would in any era.  Set their busts and exhibits off in a separate section of Cooperstown for this era with a strong introduction about steroids and how it affected the era.   For the ones not suspected, highlight that in a very visible way around their busts.  I am sure there is an exhibit about the Black Sox.  Why not be transparent and address the problem as part of an era.  That way, it won't be brushed under the rug, and the "great" players who used steroids will be there, just under a dark cloud, of sorts.  This would eliminate the baseball writers' dilemma.

StingerSplash
StingerSplash

But doesn't Morris' career also overlap the so-called PED era? Perhaps he started before the widespread use of PEDs. But how long into the "Bash Brothers" reign in Oakland did Messers McGwire and Canseco begin juicing? If it was 88-89-90, then shouldn't the single vote for Morris from Mr. Gurnick be nullified?

And anyone who did not place Maddux on their ballot should take Kim Jong Un's dogs for a walk.

USAF92
USAF92

Jeff - 


I appreciate that you would somewhat come to the defense of your friend Ken Gurnick and his "right to have an opinion" but that does not change the fact that his reasoning for casting a lone vote for Jack Morris and not for Greg Maddux, or anyone else for that matter, because he doesn't "truly know who did or didn’t take something in the steroid era" is flawed beyond reason.  


The fact is that the careers of Greg Maddux and Jack Morris overlapped for 9 seasons.  If Gurnick cannot cast a vote for Maddux based on his assertion that we did not know if players from Mad Dog's era were using PED's then, likewise, he cannot cast a vote for Jack Morris without coming to the same conclusion. 


If Gurnick is a member of the Jack Morris fan club and truly believes that he deserved to be in the HOF then, by all means, he should cast a vote for him.  But by leaving off other deserving players he has attempted to make a mockery of the voting process.  It is an insult to the players who deserve to be inducted and to the other voters who take their votes seriously.   


He may not be a dummy or a bitter old man (your words) but he is certainly a hypocrite.  As opposed to using his ballot as a one man protest vote, perhaps he should consider turning his vote over to someone who respects the game and is not looking to push his opinion/agenda at the expense of players who deserve to be elected to the HOF.


I am not just a long time avid Braves fan.  I am also an avid fan of the game and respect the accomplishments of all players who deserve to be elected to the HOF - regardless of the uniform they donned during their careers.  Case in point - I absolutely hate the Yankees but would be outraged if Mariano Rivera were not a first ballot inductee.  


Maddux and Glavine were going to be inducted despite the actions of Gurnick and the other clown who submitted a blank ballot.  On the other hand, Craig Biggio missed induction by 2 votes.  Perhaps Gurnick and the voters who cast similar "protest votes" owe guys like Biggio an explanation as to why they don't feel that their voting responsibility is worth taking seriously.  



MikeJay
MikeJay

Hmm, Terrible logic with his "stance" on this.  As other have pointed out Morris and Maddox's careers overlapped by about a third of their total playing time.  Maddox obviously never abused PED's so shouldn't his resume for induction be even MORE impressive playing in this "steroid" era?

BoiseDawg
BoiseDawg

First let me say, I would have voted Maddux and Glavine in as well... but couldn't help but be bothered by this statement from Shultz.

"Later today, two clearly drug-free ex-Braves pitchers are expected to be voted in: Maddux and Tom Glavine."

Sorry, but if I have learned anything about sports in the past 3 - 5 years, there is no such thing as a professional athlete in any sport, that is "clearly drug free".  I think it is still way more prevalent in all sports than any of us care to know or admit.... too much competition and too much money to be earned.  Just because someone doesn't have a freakish appearance doesn't mean they aren't using illegal substances. 

DawgDadII
DawgDadII

I'd like to point out, too, that in very recent years we've had playoff teams whose appearance in the playoffs with virtual certainty was aided by the PED cheaters (Milwaukee, San Francisco, and debatably Washington).

DawgDadII
DawgDadII

"Every year somebody feels compelled to “make a statement,” as was the case this year when at least one Baseball Hall of Fame voter chose to leave every “steroid era” player off of his ballot, even the clearly steroid-free Greg Maddux. "

Actually, that is what I would have done. We don't know with certainty who cheated and who did not. We do know the policies and practices of the Player's Association at a minimum did not discourage the cheating and at face value abetted the cheaters. Now, you can say there are most likely players in the Hall who at one time acted to throw games, and I'd agree that is likely. I wasn't around back then. This is not a court of law, it is a court of public opinion. Only time and open honest discussion is going to heal these wounds.

Having seen what Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, and Barry Bonds did FOR baseball on the field in terms of drawing fans it's hard to argue to keep them out. Having seen the stain they've left on the sport it's hard to envision them ever going in. Perhaps eventually there will come a point of forgiveness, but there will likely never be true justice for the honest players.

JSSN
JSSN

Nice article, but I just think he picked the wrong year (and candidate) to do it to. Last year, the penultimate one for Morris on the regular ballot was the time to make it an issue! Now it just seems bitter in action!

GeorgeStein
GeorgeStein

Does Ken Gurnick know that Jack Morris didn't use PEDs, and if so, how (because, y'know, they weren't testing when he played)? 

DNorth
DNorth

This does need to be addressed, because its only going to get worse. 

Part of the issue is that the Hall of Fame isn't just a museum ... I was watching ESPN when the annoucement came in, and Tim Kirkjian made the comment that the HOF "isn't a church".  Well, it IS kind of ... being a baseball fan isn't a business decision, its an emotional choice, and for real baseball fans, going to the HOF is rather like a pilgrimage.  You can't possibly remove emotion from that equation, and you can't remove emotion from the vote either.  During the same discussion on ESPN, Barry Larkin made the statement that the other members of the Hall that he has spoken with about it do not want PED users in the hall as members ... they can live with them being represented in some fashion, but not as members, because they respected their efforts on the field.

I believe what needs to happen is that the HOF, MLB and the player's association need to get together and decide to create a special area just for those players who admit to PED use ... in other words, they admit using them, and they are put into the special wing.  An asterisk wing, so to speak.  If they refuse to admit using them, then let the writers decide. 

And so far, the writers are deciding they're not going to be in.

MitchellC
MitchellC

Jeff, while I understand your view about knowing this guy who didn't vote for Maddux  "For Decades".. My question is this..,.., If the man doesn't want to vote for players who have stats such as Maddux, Glavine, and Frank Thomas,.. none of whom have ever had a hint of using any PED's, why is he on the committee to elect to the Hall then?  


I'm not going to be a bitter fan and call this guy "Dumb".  I will say.. that..,. especially in the case of Maddux, it is extremely sad that he didn't get 100% of the vote.


He had 350 plus wins.. So few pitchers do that, especially in  the era of starters going no more than six or seven innings.   He had.. 3300 K's, and was neither a strikeout pitcher.. nor a guy that threw even 90 MPH on a regular basis.   He had.. Four Cy Youngs, and 16 Gold Gloves.  


Simply put.. Greg Maddux was the best pitcher of the modern generation.   We could even argue that maybe he was the best of all time.   Had he pitched in a different era, and allowed to complete even more games.. there is reason to believe he might have won 400 games.  


I'm just going to be happy, and say this is one of the best days of my baseball life.  I wont focus on the writer who didn't vote for Greg.


I will just say..


Congratulations to Greg, Tom, and Frank Thomas.. They are all so deserving of being elected to the Hall of Fame. 

Remarkable3
Remarkable3

Jeff, you may not know how much longer you want to cast your vote but we want you to continue to use your good judgement.  We can't vote and if you don't then we don't have a representative.  Please vote for John Smoltz and Chipper Jones and all the other Good Guys!

ThomasBrownUGA
ThomasBrownUGA

You guys really want to talk about the Smyrna S... ?  Or, the Cobb Crackers, moving out there with no MARTA because MARTA didn't go to Turner Field, either ?  The only news about the Smyrna S... anyone is interested in, is who is going to pay for all that, the ones who moved there so they would have the lowest taxes in the state of Georgia ?

kenstallings
kenstallings

In terms of what I think should be changed, I think the limit of ten votes should be removed and allow the voters to vote for as many candidates they feel are worthy of enshrinement.  The ten vote limit is entirely arbitrary.

Past that, increasingly I think the voting should be taken away from the BBWAA and perhaps given to all the surviving members of the hall of fame -- the so-called veterans committee. 

kenstallings
kenstallings

The baseball hall of fame voting is an honor and a privilege.  If any members who current vote are not 100% sure they want to continue voting, then stop immediately, make that choice public, and resign!

As far as Ken Gurnick is concerned, people have the right to make their call, but my call is that his vote was foolish.  Jack Morris' career spanned at least halfway across the so-called PED era.  So, it was threadbare to attempt to make such a distinction.  Further, the hall of fame should not have to issue a policy for adults to use common sense and integrity in their voting.

If the current voters are incapable of using their common sense and integrity to independently determine who may have cheated the game sufficienty to warrant no enshrinement in the hall of fame, then whether they resign or not, they have indicated their incapability of performing their duties and should have those privileges revoked.

Whinning and complaining about a great honor and privilege is suddenly added to my growing list of things to dislike about today's journalists.

ThomasBrownUGA
ThomasBrownUGA

So, too, does the way Mark Richt keeps assistant coaches need new voting in-put from Greg McGarity, for example in his 4th season with all his own recruits on defense, Todd Grantham and the other Mark Richt assistant coaches put up :


# 78 Scoring Defense

# 89 Fewest Penalties per game

# 72 Time of Possession

# 66 Third Down Defense

# 53 Third Down Offense

# 65 Rushing Offense in our Pass Happy Offense

# 89 Red Zone Defense

# 122 Punt Returns

# 108 Kick-Off Returns

# 102 Turn-Over Margin


http://stats.ncaa.org/team/index/11520?org_id=257


No bloody wonder 55 football teams had the same or better record than us, # 5 in the nation, # 2 in the nation average recruiting ranking Scout.com and Rivals all 14 seasons as verified by # 2 NFL Draft Picks 2001-2013 also with 79 actually tied for 1st with Southern California.


55 teams did as well or better than us.


55.


Right above Toledo and Colorado State for the # 10 All-Time Most 1-A Wins Georgia Bulldogs.


http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/calc-wp.pl?start=2013&end=2013&rpct=0&min=0&by=Win+Pct


USAF92
USAF92

@JTavegia  Couldn't agree more.  The HOF ballot is the purview of the  Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA) so it is they who make the determination of who is deserving of induction and who is not.  I believe you would get a better result from having the votes cast by a group consisting of the following: (a) all living HOF members, (b) all current MLB managers, (c) all retired MLB managers with 10+ years at the helm of an MLB club or clubs and (d) all current and former MLB players with 10+ years of MLB experience.  


Is it possible that under that scenario guys like Pete Rose, Shoeless Joe Jackson or the gaggle of PED users would make it into the HOF?  Surely a few would but at least then we would be able to say that it was their peers who provided the path to enshrinement and, as such, it would be much more difficult to argue against it.  


Do you think for a minute that Hank Aaron would cast a vote for Barry Bonds to enter the HOF? Or what about Brooks Robinson casting a vote for A-Rod?  


CasualObserver
CasualObserver

@ThomasBrown Just for the record, you don't need to win any World Series Championships to be in the Hall of Fame, or even have any World Series appearances.  See Ernie Banks or Ron Santo.  Both played with the Cubs, and didn't make it to the World Series but both are, rightfully, in the Hall of Fame.  See also CarltonFisk.  He did have a World Series appearance, just no ring to show for it.  Enshrinement in the Hall of fame is based on total career stats, not playoff stats, just as the Heisman is, at least in theory, supposed to go to the best player, not the one whose team wins the most games.

ByteMe
ByteMe

@ThomasBrown "Greg Maddux we let go away from Atlanta too, yet despite also a good hitter but not as good as Tom Glavine, and also a great fielder but again not as great as Tom Glavine"


Uhh.. there's a reason Maddux won EIGHTEEN Gold Glove awards.

USAF92
USAF92

@ThomasBrown Maddux relied on a  cutter - not a screwball.  

JChikara
JChikara

@ThomasBrown Define the specific years of the steroid era please. Oh that's right, you can't, because you're only going on assumption. You try to state facts as if you are intelligent but you are only revealing your ignorance. Using your criteria, they should shut down voting for the Hall of Fame for players who didn't win multiple titles, which means a guy like Scott Brosius should get in before Chipper Jones because he won more rings. 


The truth is that Maddux and Glavine were the top 10 pitchers for the majority of a decade, winning multiple Cy Young awards and leading this franchise to unparalleled success. 

dis_g
dis_g

@ThomasBrownDo you remember game six of the '95 series?  Not comfortable with him on the mound post-season???

ThomasBrownUGA
ThomasBrownUGA

@CasualObserver


You can base your opinion on whom you would vote for the Hall of Fame on whatever the friq you want to CasualObserver, sir.  I expressed my own opinion that Atlanta Braves sure expect to put a lot of players in the HOF for 1 World Series Win.


You see ?


I actually hold it against them all that they won 1 World Series in 14 Consecutive Division titles.


To be the best, when the lights are brightest, you have to perform.


The Atlanta Braves are among the worst all-time at that with their 14 Division titles and 1 World Series Win over Cleveland 19 years' ago.


When I was younger, we went to the Crackers game EVERY night at Ponce de Leon Ballpark. Now, the Crackers won the Championship EVERY year by stark contrast to the LOSERS who now act like it's great that they won the World Series once here.


That's 1 more than the Falcons who both started playing at the field, first where the Crackers started before both Fulton County Stadium.


I believe, therefore I know CasualObserver thank you what the requirements are for GREATNESS in my mind.


By the way, you act like a guru giving lessons to a 3-year old on a blog where you know my credentials and still provide me a lesson from you of all folks that my HOF vote cannot be weighted heavily on postseason results here in Atlanta with our 1 Championship including Hawks, Braves and Falcons.


Not that you've wasted your monies on any of the 3 here in my hometown where I grew up, and have suffered my whole life with 1 World Series win in all 3 sports combined.


Wake Up !

ThomasBrownUGA
ThomasBrownUGA

Phil Niekro was a better fielder than Greg Maddux too, and all 3 fantastic fielders, probably none of the 3 of which did you ever pay one time to see at Fulton County Stadium or Turner Field, not once, but I preferred the fielding and hitting of Tom Glavine to Greg Maddux. Tom Glavine was a better athlete than Phil Niekro or Greg Maddux.


Greg Maddux had a .970 fielding average

Tom Glavine had a .977 fielding average


ByteMe, but again, anyone who paid every night to watch them live, knew that Tom Glavine was a better fielder than Greg Maddux, thank you very much.


Phil Niekro had a .972 fielding average, again better than Greg Maddux.


Note too that Phil Niekro had so many throws to 1st base, and still was in fact a better fielder than Greg Maddux.


Nice football team there for your logo ByteMe, 4-8 no bowl game, beat no team who even went to a bowl game and LOST to Georgia Southern University.


Was I supposed to believe you know more about baseball than I with regard to guys I watched up close and personal nightly ByteMe ?

ThomasBrownUGA
ThomasBrownUGA

Greg Maddux tilted his wrist away from his body and never threw the ball hard, but accurately.  That is a screwball, and Greg Maddux the best in baseball I ever saw at controlling the screwball action and having it run in on right-handed hitters and away from left handed hitters, even when the batter knew it was coming.  A right handed pitcher needs a screwball, otherwise everyone prefers a left handed pitcher.  And, that alone is why he won 50 more games than Tom Glavine, even though Greg Maddux suffered 8 long years on a sorry baseball team to begin his career in the friendly confines.

ThomasBrownUGA
ThomasBrownUGA

@JChikara


" leading this franchise to unparalleled success"


What a load of HOGWASH that "unparalleled success" is one World Series win for Atlanta, no NBA and no NFL.


To you sir, also WAKE UP !


That is not  unparalleled success, but in fact the worst in history for any city, as I see it, having suffered through it as I have my whole life, and probably will go on to my better reward with 1 for Braves, Hawks and Falcons here.


I did get to listen to KMOX nightly before we brought the Hawks here, and heard that one, too - not that you have any idea of what  "unparalleled success" is @JChikara sir.

ThomasBrownUGA
ThomasBrownUGA

@dis_g


35 Post Season Starts and he won 14, losing record post season.


dis_g,


Maybe you forget he started out 1-3 postseason both 1991 and 1992.  It left a lasting impression on me, far more so than his 2 wins 1995 postseason.


14 consecutive division titles, you remember 1995 over all else and to exclusion of all else, and I sir recall 14 consecutive division titles, his losing record postseason, and 1 World Series won with all these 14 consecutive division titles.


When you have 35 Post Season Starts and win 14, a losing record, you will always be remembered for winning a World Series dis_g, yes I recall the games, and I also recall all the LOSSES giving us 1 World Series win and 13 LOST SEASONS.


14 Consecutive Division Titles.


Should have been more than 1 World Series Win with 14 Consecutive Division titles.


That's what I remember.  Sorry if that bothers you dis_g, for I certainly meant no disrespect for you.


Expressing my dissatisfaction of 14 Division titles with but the 1 World Series seemingly al you recall, and his player rep position in the union during the Steroid Era he on the wrong side of that too dis_g, and his $ 42 million to sign with the hated New York Mets.


Is it ok with you that this is my considered opinion that Tom Glavine was NOT a postseason success ?